Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Erectile disfunction, premature ejaculation, delayed orgasm, etc.

Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby ledgemoor » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:40 am

Just got back from my HRT doctor, and he was all jazzed because he had just returned from a conference.

From years of experience he had learned that testosterone shots tend to work better on guys than cream. From this conference he learned that cream is converted to Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) moreso than shots. I haven't researched this at all, soo have no idea why this is bad, but thought I would pass it along. I have read of a few instances here on TMB where guys have had success with injections but not cream, but never the opposite.

Anyway, if you tried cream and it is not working, there is an another option.

They have learned that the half-life of testosterone cypionate (shots) shots is 1 week. That sounds bad, but remember, once you get in the groove, you also have 1/4 of left from the week before that, and 1/8 a week before that.... So you are at over 75% worst case with weekly injections. But you see why you see why some doctors are wanting twice-weekly injections now.

Not related to testosterone, but interesting: They found out that soy products cannot be converted into estrogen by the body. So they won't help hot flashes etc. But they won't cause cancer either. My Oriental DW was glad to learn that :D
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby hubbyforher » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:43 am

Would love to see the paper that covered the info on test conversion to DHT via transdermal. I'm interested to know whether the transdermal carrier has anything to do with it, or whether it's the dermis acting on the test molecule in absorption. Can you ask your doc for that reference?
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby mom210 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:29 pm

It is well known that the breams raise DHT more than the injections.. but the creams give a more natural rhythm and a better overall balance than the injections so that is a plus ...
DHT is not bad.. it does boost libido.. too much can cause prostate problems..but many men on creams do fine with raised DHT and have GREAT libidos..
My dh has his PSA don a few weeks ago.. it is 2.06.. his dr was VERY happy with that at his age of 52.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby ledgemoor » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:21 pm

Thanks for the continuing education Mom210. Will read up on DHT.

I'm questioning if I did the halflife calculations correctly. Tried doing it with half-week injections and it came out to over 100% :-(. WIll figure it out though. My gut feeling is that twice a week would allow very little variation, though.

Thanks again.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby hubbyforher » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:39 pm

The more often you do the injections, the more stable your blood plasma levels will be. So, if your doc prescribes test cyp at 150mg/wk, you could do one injection of 150mg/wk, or two injections at 75mg/wk. The two injections will provide you more stable levels, but once a week won't make things so uneven that you'll notice much.

One common protocol is an injection once per week, with 1 or 2 HCG injections. So if you pin test on Sun at 150mg, you would pin HCG at 250IUs on the next Fri and again on Sat, when your test levels would be declining slightly. The HCG boosts the test levels up and keep the testes from atrophy. Does that make sense?
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby Exuberance » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:18 pm

My question is... Was the conference hosted and funded by a pharmaceutical company that manufactures shot-delivery testosterone?
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby ledgemoor » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:41 am

HubbyForHer:

Yeah, what you say makes perfect sense. I am on 0.5cc(100 mg) once a week. I used to notice some fluxuation. If we had a big screw date planned I would try to shoot a couple days beforehand. Now, though, while I notice some flusxuation in my drive (there are other factors that make us horny of course), but it is not timed with the injections. Heck, we missed one and I still did it twice the same day ten days since shooting. So I just take it on schedule now. But yeah, the fluctiation on twice-weekly would be negligible.

Also, I switched from a 23ga to 25ga needle, which I think evened it out a bit. DW says it is easier to stick me, and it tends not to hurt as much, although the 23ga didn't hurt much either. You have to use an an 18ga to suck it out of the vial -- so it is a bit more inconvenient and expensive, but worth it I think.

But I think there is also a possibility that letting yourself run low on supplimentation could be good in a way. It could encourage your body to make more of its own and keep that working as much as possible. Anyway, I have absolutely no complaints now!

LOVE your icon!

I have had no testicular shrinkage -- the doctor mentioned HCG but said I don't need it. He watches your estrodiol to make sure you aren't getting too much.


Exuberance, sorry, I didn't ask who was conducting the conference. Based on the coversation it is likely the orgaization that all the bHRT doctors belong to -- they discussed mostly women's issues.

However, it is highly unlikely that it was influenced by profit motive for selling injectable testosterone. It is the least costly option, available in generic, and probably gets about as much attention as diaphragms get at big pharma birth control conferences. I pay $5/week. Androgel costs $10/day.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby TheStudent » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:56 pm

Good information. My PCP would not prescribe injectable T because he felt it was too easily abused. I switched to a different provider and have been injecting for the last 8 weeks. Here's why I like injectable over gel. I should add that I do not have any experience with compounded cream.

Time -

I travel for a living and currently inject every 5 days, which means I rarely have to worry about it while on the road as I always inject at home. Also, I was applying two tubes of Testim on a daily basis, which was at least a 10 minute process including wringing out the tubes, using latex gloves, waiting for my skin to dry etc. While 10 minutes may not seem like much time, it adds up to 60 hours over the course of a year. Simply unacceptable. It takes me less than 3 minutes to inject 5 days worth of testosterone. Also, consistently applying my Testim while traveling all over the country was very difficult and it needs to be done daily.

Cost -

Injectable is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than any gel on the market (testim, androgel). Unfortunately, there are no big drug companies pushing injectable treatment so it goes under the radar.

Those are the two big ones, but what else is there besides time and money. Why spend 60 hours doing anything when you can do it in less than 4?

Having experienced both, I prefer injectable T. Oddly enough, I was originally clued into injectable T by my pharmacist. I was actually quite irritated when she told me what the cost was and that I only had to inject once a week when my PCP had me going through this elaborate daily ritual, slathering stinky alchohol based Testim all over myself when all I had to do was inject 4 times a month. :evil:
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby Liberated » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:25 pm

TheStudent wrote:Oddly enough, I was originally clued into injectable T by my pharmacist. I was actually quite irritated when she told me what the cost was and that I only had to inject once a week when my PCP had me going through this elaborate daily ritual, slathering stinky alchohol based Testim all over myself when all I had to do was inject 4 times a month. :evil:


Yep we had a similar issue, my DH is presently on Testogel, he can't stand putting the "stinky stuff" on lol, it costs us $103 for 30 daily tubes which last a month, we havn't noticed a difference yet. We went into the chemist the other day and found out it will cost us about $35 for 3 injections @ 1 per month :shock: so we're back to the Dr's tomorrow night for a prescription and hopefully a higher doseage of Cialis too.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby Arogen » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:40 am

I like using a gel over needles, but I don't like the extra cost. Isn't there a patch as well? anybody have any experience with that?
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby mom210 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:25 am

Arogen wrote:I like using a gel over needles, but I don't like the extra cost. Isn't there a patch as well? anybody have any experience with that?



You could go to a compounded testosterone cream.. this is what my dh uses now with good results.. it costs him $30 a month.

also.. Liberator... 3 injections a month, may give you to many ups and downs.. just a thought to consider... many docs are now doing injections once a week at minimum and some are even doing twice a week.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby ledgemoor » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:56 pm

Agree with Mom210 on 3 injections per month. Weekly would be better, not to mention easier to work into your schedule -- easier to remember to do it every Fri nite or whenever than every approx 10 days.

I get a vial of testosterone cypionate from Costco online pharmacy for about $70 ppd. You don't need to be a Costco member to buy from their pharmacy. It lasts 20 weeks, shooting 1/2cc (which has 100mg of testosterone).
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby Learnin2LuvHimBetter » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:07 pm

::arg DH's quack of a doctor only tested him for testosterone because I nagged him into it (and then as soon as the results were in he acted like it was his idea.) And NOW I find out that the protocol that HE prescribed is not even reasonably up to date. He has DH getting an injection every 2 weeks. ::arg ::arg Actually it is worse than that. After 6 months he tested DH (3 days after an injection) to find out what his levels were and said that DH could cut back to injections every 3 weeks. That had too big of a drop in how he felt so we went back to once every 2 weeks but never got to tell the doctor.

And now his doctor has moved his practice to a VA clinic (which infuriates me for the vets that they are getting this quack) so I don't get to rant at him. (Then again, maybe that is a good thing.)

Well, this puts a new urgency on finding DH a new doctor.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby ledgemoor » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:28 pm

Yeah, the instructions that come with the Test Cyp does say every two weeks. I can't find it now but there is a chart on the web that shows that after two weeks you are practically running on empty. Prescribing it every three weeks is plain malpractice. Doesn't the idiot doctor know just to reduce the dossage???? Danm.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby Learnin2LuvHimBetter » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:33 am

Now that I am no longer furious at the doctor, I do think I am going to send him a letter informing him of the newer research. Since he is going to the VA clinic there is a good chance he will have patients that are low T there too.

We started doing the 1/2 dose every week and it seems to have already made a difference. He has an appt with a new doctor and we will see if we need to reduce the dose some or what exactly.

I am just so grateful to have this information!
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby owl334 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:44 am

Are there any side effects for the shots? Related to Liver? For me the gels did not work so trying shots. Also do you'll give the shots or go to nurse.

How long does it take for shots to take effect. Did the libido increase after first shot or did it take more shots. Do you'll have to take other medications like Cialis etc for PIV interourse.
Please stage age, dosage of shots and frequency of PIV
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby ledgemoor » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:15 am

No side-effects whatsoever. Liver problems only happen when you take it orally.

DW usually gives me the shots, although I can do it myself.

I do not need any other medication to treat sexual dysfunction. I never even tried Viagra etc. I do take zinc, copper, DIM, multivitimin, etc to aid in processing the testosterone. The DIM is for estrogen management. DW takes testosterone/estrogen/progesterone, and takes the same suppliments as I do, plus DHEA.

I take 1/2cc of Testosterone Cypionate (which has 100mg of testosterone) weekly. Age is early 50's. Things are kind of hectic now, but normally, I would be capable of PIV 5-6 times a week no problem. We usually have PIV three or four times and I masturbate on the other days.

The first shot made NO DIFFERENCE. A little better after the second, pretty good after a month, and probably 2 months for full effect. I used to notice things were best about two days after the injection -- we would time the injections around anticipated screw dates. Now I just shoot on schedule -- I notice no fluxuation now.

Hope the injections work for you. I have read of several cases where injections work for men where cream wouldn't. Our bHRT doctor feels that shots are far superior for men (Women seem to do better on cream, interestingly). Injections are also the cheapest and most convenient.

I just started having bedroom problems recently, but I think I have been low my whole life. I have lost a lot of weight without really trying, and in great physical shape now.

Let me know if any other questions. Keep us updated.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby Learnin2LuvHimBetter » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:37 am

DH currently does 1 cc at 100 mg but is going to soon be doing 1/2 a cc at 100mg once a week. I don't know how soon he noticed the results when he first started it, but since he was doing it every other week, I don't know how valid it would be anyway. I am high drive if we are having sex reasonably often and this year we have only missed 5 days (and I don't know if he MB those days or not). Every day we had sex, we had PIV at least once that day and most days more than once (although DH typically only Os once a day. Sometimes he can O the second time). DH has always had a long refractory time (not necessarily to achieve erection but to O). Now that I think about it, the better spacing of injections seems to be helping with his ability to O everyday.

He did try viagra but after the 2nd or 3rd time he took it, he started getting a huge headache the next day so it isn't really worth it for us.

He did the first injection but I have done all the others since that one. I would suggest that you get an extra syringe or two and practice (or have your DW practice) on an orange. It is something they used to suggest in nursing school years ago (they may still suggest it, I don't know). You could either inject it with water (although an oil may be more like the actual injection) and then throw the orange away or maybe inject it with an adult beverage and then eat it after you do the first shot on you.

And FWIW, DH is 41.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby pileon » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:11 am

Will be taking the first injection this afternoon. My insurance company balked at the cost of the gel. They are starting me at once every 3 weeks--seems like a bit too far spaced based upon my reading in this forum.
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Re: Testosterone -- injection vs cream. And soybeans

Postby mom210 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:11 pm

Shots 3 weeks apart are NOT good... you need ideally twice a week.. at worst once a week.
You may wan to check into the price of compounded testosterone cream.. dh uses that and without insurance it only costs 430 a month/
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