A virgin asking a non-virgin

[MayDayGirl]

I'm confused......if the OP isn't engaged, why is he here????

[mamame]

But if you make it to the altar as a virgin [and I won't include myself in that category though some might] - why shouldn't you have a reasonable expectation of reward for that? .

interesting.

I wonder though, it seems sometimes you consider yourself a virgin before marriage and sometimes you don't. How would you rate your purity before marriage?

[padsnd]

I see a lot of people on here who key on the term forgiveness and say, "she didn't do anything to you". I'm not sure I agree 100% with this. True, the sin was not against you and perhaps for that reason forgiveness is not the right term. However, if you choose to be her spouse, you have to live with the consequences of her sin. She has to live with the consequences of your sin too.

Let me let you in a secret about marriage. The "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" part means that in marriage--no matter what spouse you choose--your spouse will have fallen short of the Glory of God in some area. In addition, your future spouse will have to deal with the places where you have fallen short. Some fall short in the physically sexual arena. Some fall short in the mental sexual arena. Some fall short in the financial arena. Some fall short in other areas. As I said above, you have to live with the consequences of her sin. Likewise, she has to live with the consequences of your sin too.

To move this away from the sexual side of things so that we can discuss a comparison that does not involve the whole stigma of premarital sex, let's look at one who in their past dealt with overspending. The future spouse of this person enters into the marriage with a weight that at minimum may require some sort of grieving over the loss of dreams and hopes that must be delayed or modified. The couple may be strapped with significant bills that make it impossible to have the freedom to do the things they most enjoy.

Was this overspending a sin against the future spouse? Perhaps not.
Does the spouse need to grant forgiveness? Maybe not.
Does it affect the spouse? Definitely.
Is there a loss that may involve a "grieving"? Definitely.
Is there something that needs to be dealt with for the marriage to be healthy? Definitely.

So why would we dismiss the loss for the one who will not know if the future spouse will have feelings that a past partner was better?

Now, regarding the OP's questions, the count doesn't matter so don't dwell on it. If you believe that she has repented (turned away) from this, then the count doesn't matter. If you don't believe she has repented, then it doesn't matter either because you probably shouldn't be pursuing something with her. The only way that question regarding this would bring any benefit to the relationship is if you are questioning if something triggered the temptation to sin so that you could support her. As for the STD testing, that might be appropriate if there is a concern. However, like others have said, this is something that should be dealt with very carefully. It is improper for you to address this from a standpoint of I'm asking for this because you did something wrong. If your asking for it solely for the benefit of protecting both of you, seeking treatment and prevention for both of you, and keeping both of you healthy; then it may be appropriate.

Let's put things into perspective. Are there any things in your past that she should know about tendencies toward a particular type of sin (lust, gluttony, gossip, etc.) that she should know so that she can help you avoid this?

[redessa01]

You've already gotten some great words of advice here. I just wanted to chime in a little on your first question. As to asking her how many partners she's had - that may or may not be a legitimate question depending on your reason for asking. I can't happen to think of a good reason for you needing to know that, but there may be one. As for how many times she's had intercourse with any particular person - there is absolutely no reason for you to have that information. She has had sex and therefor is at risk for having contracted an STD. If she's not been tested yet, she should be. Number of partners or frequency of "activities" is irrelevent.

[Luv2LuvHim]

I've been following the thread as I find it interesting and can possibly offer you, well maybe not advice as much as "I understand you."

My DH was my first....I was not his first. He was married once before and before becoming a Christian had been intimate with others.
We too, like your situation, were talking about engagement and marriage and doing all the spiritual seeking/preparation before the "ring was on the finger."
When people here say, "you're not engaged" only you know the answer to that....and if you both agree that you're engaged and heading seriously towards marriage, then these questions you bring up are all appropriate to address now.
Although my DH proposed to me in September (he didnt have the ring prior to that so didnt want to do the formal proposal), we had already had the deep discussion about our relationship and where God was leading the way for us at least a few months prior. In our hearts and minds we were already engaged and planning our premarital courses. If that's your situation then I would agree that you're in the "engagement" arena.

Around that time (engagement) I became very curious about "how many" he had been with. I had asked him and was quite curious as to what it was like...it's natural to be curious especially when you havent experienced sex yourself. I mean, this is the person you're going to spend the rest of your life with - I WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM AND THEIR HISTORY. It's not with the intent of figuring out if they're worthy of me...it's more from the "I love you, want to spend for ever with you and want to know you and everything you've experienced." I didnt feel I had to "forgive" him, and at the time I felt like it wasnt a huge deal....he wasnt saved before, what's important is now and his character and such....BUT, some time after being married I must say that it did bug me a little bit. More so because I get curious about the details - were they any good, did he like them better, etc. That's not his problem, it's my problem. Those thoughts are very silly and even though I know the answer to them they still pop in my head occasionally. They rarely pop up now and early in our marriage I was much more curious (especially about his exwife - I mean, you married her, there must have been some happiness there at some point! I want to know about it....he hates to talk about it ).
I dont hold anything against him but you need to realize that if you do have issues with it now, deal with it or dont get married...things typically magnify themselves after marriage (not always but many times so).
Also, I did ask him to get tested when we were engaged - he had never been tested and hates the docs but he fully understood and said he'd feel terrible if he found out he had something after the fact and infected me with it. Dont feel bad about asking her to get tested - if you guys are serious and have decided that you're getting married then it's a must, in my book (not only for your sake but also for hers regardless of what happens.

Oh, and regarding what padsnd wrote - I kind of agree with him regarding the whole issue of "did she or did she not do anything to you" in having sex before marriage.
First let me say that NOBODY is any better than anyone else - God sees us all as sinners and we each have our baggage, so to speak. With that said, there are many people on here on TMB that report their wives are less than interested in sex and many times the question is asked, "did she have premarital sex with you or anyone else?" Guess what, if she has "scars" from that or shame or whatever you want to call it....it may affect you. So, did she do something to you? Not really. Is it affecting you (or possibly can affect you)? Yes. Does that mean that you still need to "forgive" her? I dont know....certainly the sin is against God and her body, not you....but for any future issues it could cause (if any, I'm not saying it will, simply that others have reported issues due to premarital sex) I'm not sure....


Sorry this is so long....

[Luv2LuvHim]

Oh, one more thing - to all you TMB'ers who posted (and with all due respect ) that there's no need to know how many people she had been with, how many times she had sex, etc....I find that that stance is fine if he's talking about someone he's casually dating or something. We're talking about marriage here and I have every right to ask my spouse or future spouse anything I want....now, they have every right to answer or not answer
At any rate, I just find it weird that you would think it's not right to ask your future spouse about their sexual history...I find it to be a very natural thing to want details as to such an intimate thing in their life. I mean, we ask stuff like "how did you feel when your dad died.....what's the best thing that ever happened to you.....was your first time good or bad..." I dont see why asking "have you had a lot of sex before?" is such a terrible thing.
Again, remember that there are tons of people on TMB that report sex issues with their spouse where their sexual past is one of many aspects affecting it.
I"d want to know before I tied the knot...am I wrong here?

[Mr. Rkt]

You're not wrong. Very compassionate post. Thanks for making it.

[padsnd]

Oh, one more thing - to all you TMB'ers who posted (and with all due respect ) that there's no need to know how many people she had been with, how many times she had sex, etc....I find that that stance is fine if he's talking about someone he's casually dating or something. We're talking about marriage here and I have every right to ask my spouse or future spouse anything I want....now, they have every right to answer or not answer
At any rate, I just find it weird that you would think it's not right to ask your future spouse about their sexual history...I find it to be a very natural thing to want details as to such an intimate thing in their life. I mean, we ask stuff like "how did you feel when your dad died.....what's the best thing that ever happened to you.....was your first time good or bad..." I dont see why asking "have you had a lot of sex before?" is such a terrible thing.
Again, remember that there are tons of people on TMB that report sex issues with their spouse where their sexual past is one of many aspects affecting it.
I"d want to know before I tied the knot...am I wrong here?

Actually, the more I think about it, I don't think there is anything wrong with the question. It just depends on the purpose of the question. Does the exact number matter? Probably not. Does it matter that there were a few or few hundred? Maybe. Does it matter that there were a few and some of them are people you and your spouse may encounter on a frequent basis? Probably. Some of the aspects of the question do make sense and some of the aspects are related to the health of the relationship.

[ClearBlueSky]

1 Corinthians 6:18 - "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."

Romans 8:1 - "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

My DW is a chronic refuser. I had some of the same feelings as the OP. During our engagement, I had an emotional roller coaster between redemption in Christ and physically what I felt like I wanted as a virgin husband-to-be, knowing that my future bride was not a virgin. She led me to believe that she could hardly wait until her chance to "do it" with the man God intended for her. During our honeymoon, the exploration and newness seemed to be bliss. As we lived the first six months of our married life, the frequency decreased until the point that I had to start asking questions. This led to counseling, then a break from counseling, then more counseling, then a few years break, then more counseling. During this time of 11 years, the frequency was about 2 times per year. I heard things like "I didn't do it that much and didn't like it when I was single." One day, I came home in horror to find she had written something much different on a woman's board that she had accidently left up on the computer. This led me to obsess about my inadequacy. It led me to ponder how someone, although they may actually be redeemed by Christ, or may say they're redeemed, that physically, in some way, when they practice sex outside of marriage, it takes a different value to them. That since it was no big deal to give it away when not married, then what was the big deal to NOT do it in marriage. Even though many here state every sin is the same, there is something about practicing a life of fornication that does something to one's being, in my opinion. Why does 1 Cor 6:18 state what it states in other words? What if someone found out that someone they were dating had murdered someone, but said they were born again in Christ, it doesn't mean that the law would need to be applied, it doesn't mean a person might not change their opinion of whether to marry or not due to a previous sin of murder. Although we have little law that is applied in the case of someone's sexuality, I believe that people's feelings, attitudes, etc. from sin can affect them and their spouses future on earth even though in eternity, the redemption is complete. I started to feel bitterness, like she opened a present every night that we were supposed to open together, but when it came time to open it with me, it was old news, like the toy that ends up in the box in the attic because it has no appeal anymore. Now, I'm not sure if her current sin has anything to do with her past sin, there might be some women who are very generous to their husbands who possessed the same virgin vs. non-virgin status as we did. It's just difficult and a battle not to blur the entire sequence of events from our meeting and her prior experience to where we are now. I have never belittled her or even mentioned or brought up the insecurities I have about her experience, by the way, it's just pain that I keep to myself, and I doubt it would motivate her to want to solve this problem that she probably feels is not a problem in the first place, it's just her choice that she feels she has a right to. I would not go back and change anything, due to my precious children, and that is what I look at to bear the sadness and loneliness to be unfulfilled in this manner. Looking at the current pain, however, it would be hard if you feel like you were burned by a certain situation, to avoid similar circumstances again in the future. Would that potentially keep two people apart that might be completely different than our relationship? Perhaps. I don't know. She did come unglued when I asked for an STD test and the doctor blew it off, then I asked why wouldn't he think this is important? This should have been some indication of selfishness in itself, regardless of one's sexual status. Almost 19 years of this ... if it bother's him, then he might not want to do the relationship for her sake. I think for a better chance at happiness, however, there are many factors that will breed success, like growing up with similar religious, family structure, discipline values, etc., and yes, that can include one's fortitude and discipline for virginity, purity, and commitment to your marriage vows regardless of how you feel.

[Mr. Rkt]

While ClearBlueSky has a painful story, I think it is important to point out a few important things:

As he says, he has chosen not to open up to her about this. So it is impossible to determine what the link is, or how she would react to knowing how he has suffered.

In a poll here on TMB, about half the members committed the sin of premarital sex. Most of the members here are not refusers.

ClearBlueSky's wife committed the sin of premarital sex. She is now committing the sin of refusal. The fact that those two things happened in his marriage does not mean that they will happen in the OP's marriage. In fact, the polls at TMB would lend to the belief that it likely won't.

Every marriage is unique, because it is made of two individuals. We all sinned before we married. That has nothing to do with whether we sin after marriage (because we will), or what kind of sin we will commit. Only a repentant, humble, and servant attitude will prevent marital sin. As ClearBlueSky indicated, he ran into signs of the absence of this attitude before his marriage. That was the red flag, not the pre-marital sex.

[redessa01]

Okay, I can see where he'd want to know how many partners she's had. WIll this information be helpful to him? I don't know, but if I were in his shoes, I fully admit, I'd want to know too. But I still stand by the idea that knowing how many times is none of his business. I mean it might be one thing if she said she'd slipped once and only once. But if she was in a relationship, it could have been a regular thing. Does anyone expect her to have kept a tally? I know I certainly could not even begin to answer the question of how many times I've had sex (with my husband) and I wouldn't think that was anyone's business anyway. I guess the OP may want to know the general frequency, but if his question is how this relates to the possibility of her having an STD, then I still don't see that it matters.

[padsnd]

Okay, I can see where he'd want to know how many partners she's had. WIll this information be helpful to him? I don't know, but if I were in his shoes, I fully admit, I'd want to know too. But I still stand by the idea that knowing how many times is none of his business. I mean it might be one thing if she said she'd slipped once and only once. But if she was in a relationship, it could have been a regular thing. Does anyone expect her to have kept a tally? I know I certainly could not even begin to answer the question of how many times I've had sex (with my husband) and I wouldn't think that was anyone's business anyway. I guess the OP may want to know the general frequency, but if his question is how this relates to the possibility of her having an STD, then I still don't see that it matters.

I think the OP's question seems to indicate that he is not looking to hear it was 23 not 24 times. He's asking if it's appropriate to ask questions like:

Were there multiple guys?
Were they people you dated a while before you slept with them?
Was it something that was more like a "slip up" once in a while or was it something you just did without thinking anything wrong about it?

[padsnd]

ClearBlueSky's wife committed the sin of premarital sex. She is now committing the sin of refusal. The fact that those two things happened in his marriage does not mean that they will happen in the OP's marriage. In fact, the polls at TMB would lend to the belief that it likely won't.

Mr Rkt,

While your statement may be technically true here, scientific evidence does suggest that there is a higher probability that a person who engaged in premarital sex will have issues with marital sex. There have been studies done that suggest that the process of committing an act like this that is considered "breaking the rules" can over time hard-wire your brain into expecting the "high" that comes from doing something "bad". So, it is not 100% accurate to say the two are not related. Certainly, one does not imply that the other will occur; however, the idea that one does not increase the likelihood isn't accurate either.

[Paul B]

I think it's fab to ask for STD testing, don't get me wrong. I just think there needs to be a ring first.

In a dating situation I can see that, and how asking earlier might lead to all kinds of second guessing the situation and the motivation.

OTOH, in general, for any friendship, I think urging testing for anyone with any sexual experience is right and necessary.

Paul

[Mr. Rkt]

ClearBlueSky's wife committed the sin of premarital sex. She is now committing the sin of refusal. The fact that those two things happened in his marriage does not mean that they will happen in the OP's marriage. In fact, the polls at TMB would lend to the belief that it likely won't.

Mr Rkt,

While your statement may be technically true here, scientific evidence does suggest that there is a higher probability that a person who engaged in premarital sex will have issues with marital sex. There have been studies done that suggest that the process of committing an act like this that is considered "breaking the rules" can over time hard-wire your brain into expecting the "high" that comes from doing something "bad". So, it is not 100% accurate to say the two are not related. Certainly, one does not imply that the other will occur; however, the idea that one does not increase the likelihood isn't accurate either.

I acknowledge that, padsnd, and I thank you for pointing that out. In a discussion board, which relies so heavily on anecdotal evidence, it is common to take a powerful and painful story, such as CBS's, and then draw a number of conclusions and apply them to other marriages. We should be careful to note that we're talking about humans here, and they are very individual and tied to their own unique desires, weaknesses, and the quirks of their own sinful nature. Most of the problems in a marriage are unique to that marriage, and even further, unique to the personalities of the couple. If there is some kind of statistical argument that makes their situation a caution to others, it is usually a very weak one.

[Mr. Rkt]

Okay, I can see where he'd want to know how many partners she's had. WIll this information be helpful to him? I don't know, but if I were in his shoes, I fully admit, I'd want to know too. But I still stand by the idea that knowing how many times is none of his business.

I agree with you, but only in a very limited sense. It is technically none of his business because they are not engaged. However, if he is about to propose marriage to her, and he cannot get peace about this, then it is very much his business. I really do believe that if we are going to marry, we are no longer privileged to wall off parts of our lives (even parts that occurred before we met) and say "that's mine, you don't get to see it, it's 'none of your business.'"

The question of whether he should press for those kinds of details is another one. It is possible to get peace and healing without knowing all that. But his insecurity and pain is one of the consequences of what she did, and if they are to be married then it may have to be addressed. Each of them (if they are to be engaged, not now) should approach the question with love, generosity and acceptance. If he has to ask, then she has to trust him with the truth, then pray with him for healing from the pain that might come from the truth (pain for both of them, not just him). And if he can heal and go forth loving her unconditionally without knowing, he should have the love and generosity to give this up, and not pursue it, for pursuing it will cause her pain. The degree of sacrifice by each of them will be unique to their situation, so there really isn't any advice any of us can give him that will answer the question. This is a spiritual matter between him and God right now, and may eventually involve her.

I will go so far, however, to say that if it gets to that point, and he is ready to propose marriage, and he prays about this and cannot get peace or healing without having this discussion with her; and if he then asks and gets the reply "that is none of your business", then he should not marry her. Not because she is covering up something awful, but because she is revealing a trait that he does not want to take into a lifelong commitment. She is not yet mature or loving enough to trust him and God with the most intimate parts of her being. Regardless of her motivation, if she cannot do that, she is not ready to marry.

[Job29Man]

Man! I had left this thread a while ago because I lost interest. But what a good turn it has taken now that I check in! These are deep questions, thoughtful responses!

When I was a teen and having a heart to heart with my mother one day it got to the subject of what men and women should know about each other before they get married. At my stage of innocence then I was thinking more in terms of "do you tell her you had a girlfriend?" But my Mom answered in pretty broad terms that I didn't really understand then, but look back on now and I "get it".

She said "I don't think it's wise to ask a question if you don't REALLY want to know the answer."

Later on I decided for myself that I really did want to know the answers to "everything" about her. And I offered to tell "everything" about me. I'd say, if you are content not to know and you suspect the answer would crush you, don't ask, and put the issue behind you for good. But if it would always bug you and cause friction not knowing then ask, but be prepared for an answer you might not want to know, and then you get to deal with that reality.

"Not knowing" should not be the cause of dividing you. It should unite you.
"Knowing" should also not be the cause of division, but unity.
In general both mates should be willing to tell if asked, willing to not tell if asked. I can't imagine being or marrying someone who refuses to tell; in fact I wouldn't advise it.

It's up to you to know which course is right for you.

[Luv2LuvHim]

I will go so far, however, to say that if it gets to that point, and he is ready to propose marriage, and he prays about this and cannot get peace or healing without having this discussion with her; and if he then asks and gets the reply "that is none of your business", then he should not marry her. Not because she is covering up something awful, but because she is revealing a trait that he does not want to take into a lifelong commitment. She is not yet mature or loving enough to trust him and God with the most intimate parts of her being. Regardless of her motivation, if she cannot do that, she is not ready to marry.

This is what I call "red flags." My thought has always been, "dont look at the big actions people do, but look at the small details"....the small things that are said sometimes, the reactions to things...details are what give you a snap shot of personality/character. I agree with you MrRkt totally with your above statements.
As we read over and over again in people's posts here at TMB, one spouse reports having an issue with something and they'll say "well, it was too painful for him/her to talk about it before we got married so I just thought with time they'd come around...didnt think it would be a big issue." And then of course the "coming around" never happens...or vice versa, someone will say "I knew they had others before me and I thought I'd be fine but after we got married it started to bother me." If there are any reservations about certain things prior to marriage, why is there this rush to just marry and work it out later - this is what the period of engagement is for. If you cant work it out now, what makes you think it'll be easier to work out later?
Now, that's not to say that he cant remain engaged to her - he can simply say this is something that he'd like to be able to talk about and cant proceed with marriage till he has some resolution. She may just agree that she needs time to process and share....she may not. If she's not willing, then I fully agree, someone who isnt willing to share something now, typically isnt willing to share other things later either.
It would definitely raise a red flag with me.

[thinkingswiftly]

Ringing in late, I have a couple comments:

First, as a doctrinal issue, Mr. Rkt stated that someone was "now committing the sin of sexual refusal". I just wanted a clarification on the rationale on calling sexual refusal a sin. While I strongly agree this will put any marriage into dire straights, I'm not sure there are biblical grounds for calling this sin. Can anyone point me in the right direction here?

Second, some STDs can have no signs or symptoms in females that wreak havoc on males. Gonorrhea and genital warts come to mind and I believe syphilis too.

As to the OPs questions:
I strongly disagree that sexual topics are off limits before a ring, even dealing with past history. I'll also disagree that the OP has no right to be forgiving her for her sin. When DW and I met, very early in our relationship we wanted things to progress to the next stage and had that precise discussion. We had both had a bad physical relationship with others in high school and had not dated anyone since. As the topic came up we discovered the other had had one of these relationships, and asked details about how many people, what things, how often, etc. In absolute honesty it was not until we had this discussion and forgave each other that we felt truly forgiven and healed of these issues. I had no right to forgive her sin, nor did she have any right to forgive mine. But hearing all someone's dirty secrets, hugging them, and telling them "its okay" and then having the same acceptance in turn after they know all of yours is absolutely what should happen in a normal, healthy, marriage-bound relationship.

IMHO, it is never too early to discuss these things. Each relationship of each pairing is unique. While I'd not recommend it until you are ready to become more serious, for some people it may be on the first date or in the case of the friend you end up dating, it may even be years before a relationship exists!

As to getting tested, I'd absolutely say it is appropriate to suggest she get tested FOR HER OWN PIECE OF MIND. If she does and wants to share or not share the result, let her do as she will. I would not tell or ask her to unless a positive result would make you backpedal out of a marriage.

For myself, I'm a Registered Nurse. I have worked with people who have just about everything. It is always possible that one day I may get exposed to something. As such, if I ever am, I will choose to be tested for my own piece of mind and that of my wife. However, we both have had to accept that this may happen in my career, even in a manner I am never aware of, and it is possible we might both become infected before either of us know anything. If you are concerned enough that a positive result even for AIDS would make you break off the relationship, ask her to get tested at that point. I know this is not part of the mainstream world to worry about, but when DW and I got engaged I was working on a spinal cord injury floor and taking care of a 19 y/o male with a C4 fracture who is going to be in a wheel chair on a breathing machine for the rest of his life. I had to know beyond any doubt that if I ever wound up in the same situation or worse she'd stick beside me or I couldn't have married her.

[padsnd]

Ringing in late, I have a couple comments:

First, as a doctrinal issue, Mr. Rkt stated that someone was "now committing the sin of sexual refusal". I just wanted a clarification on the rationale on calling sexual refusal a sin. While I strongly agree this will put any marriage into dire straights, I'm not sure there are biblical grounds for calling this sin. Can anyone point me in the right direction here?

There is a long discussion on this found in this thread. Suffice it to say that there are diverse viewpoints on this that include: it's not wrong (not held widely on TMB), it's wrong but not sin, and it's sin because the person has already violated the relationship with their refusal.