Addressing Sexual Past and Future Problems

[marchmadness]

Hi. I just want to say that this website is amazing. You all are doing a great job of getting out God's message of what a real marriage sexuality is. Before I start I'll give you a quick background on myself.

I'm "semi-engaged". There's a woman in my life with whom I'm now at the point where I need to consider whether or not marriage is a potential option. However, I have pushed back the day I was going to propose twice already. Mainly because there are some general questions that I have had but could never really get an answer to.

1. How can you accurately tell if there is any sexual chemistry without sleeping together beforehand? I know with most things it's about faith and just hoping it'll work out. Two people who sleep together can probably find out about any sexual chemistry problems and then split up, but if they do end up together they probably end up with more problems than they started with. Catch 22. But I've heard from people and even read here of couples who were both virgins or both non-virgins or one of each that abstained only to find out that things weren't as they should be. Some people even talk about how they were in a sense "duped" into thinking that things were great and things went downhill from the honeymoon.

2. Wouldn't it be best for a virgin to marry another virgin? What I mean is I've also heard and read about virgins who marry non-virgins and feel gipped that the other person enjoyed sex with other people then got married and decided that they were done with sex. It seems like not all but some people who engaged in premarital sex become refusers, even if it were with just one person. Now you end up with a person who essentially did the right thing, but is being put through hell while the other person basically enjoyed themselves, often times looking back positively on the experiences.

I know it's not the popular opinion, but I think the person who does the right thing should feel upset if things go that way. I'm a young man in this sex filled generation. I could have easily gone off and "done it" but I chose the do what I felt was right. It's not a matter of being self-righteous because I know that God forgives all sins and the past is the past, but in reality when it comes to sex, the past isn't the past. Sometimes the more experienced person looks back on their past and ends up comparing their current partner to the others, whether consciously or subconsciously. This will lead to frustration for the experienced one, and pressure or even shame for the inexperienced one for not being able to please their partner in the way that they're used to.

Would I be better off just waiting to find another virgin (if they still exist)? Going through the ringer and fighting for my purity has made it all seem that more special now that I'm older. Is it wrong for me to hold sex in such a high regard? To me it isn't because sex and love are one in the same. So if someone sees sex as "just sex", don't you think that's an indication on what they think of love? Isn't that how people end up saying "Our marriage is great, except for the sex"?

I hate the fact that I'm even thinking like this because once we're in Christ we're made new. But if that's the case, why even bother telling people to save sex for marriage if God's gonna forgive them anyway? And what do you say about the people who were Christians their whole lives and yet were promiscuous knowing that it was wrong?

I guess I just need help trying to find a balance between being self righteous and saying that everything's ok to do because of grace.

[hartheal]

I don't think you can tell if there's any sexual chemistry before you get married. Also, marriage is for a lifetime.... the chemistry comes and goes even among people who are very compatible and have good marriages.

This will lead to frustration for the experienced one, and pressure or even shame for the inexperienced one for not being able to please their partner in the way that they're used to.

If you are the inexperienced partner, I advise you to wait for another inexperienced person. You are absolutely 100% correct in your assessment of the situation you will be in for. It will be hurtful beyond belief and the fallout of it will last for years.

[ClearBlueSky]

I think it comes down to is there any sign of selfishness and not being generous? Another factor is their relationship with parents, is there respect or disdain, did the parents have a healthly, Godly view of sexuality, especially, was the relationship healthy with the opposite sex parent? There is no "fool-proof" way to make sure of anything: like how do you know how that person is going to manage money well? You look for good training from parents, a healthy attitude about how money is to be used or not used, was their money in their past squandered. Just as some women may try to use sex as a way to maintain a boyfriend, others may use money to maintain a relationship as well. I don't think that sleeping with someone is anyway to tell, I mean, how many times would you have to sleep together to have the "magic" number of times that you were satisfied that sex wasn't a problem, not to mention, it would be committing a sin together with that person, just to make sure sin doesn't happen in a future marriage. Doesn't make sense to me. I think no matter what area of marriage that your talking about, it makes it harder when experiences of whatever kind are mismatched, it can cause one partner to feel superior or inferior to the other and perceptions, expectations start causing all kinds of problems.

[mamame]

This will lead to frustration for the experienced one, and pressure or even shame for the inexperienced one for not being able to please their partner in the way that they're used to.

If you are the inexperienced partner, I advise you to wait for another inexperienced person. You are absolutely 100% correct in your assessment of the situation you will be in for. It will be hurtful beyond belief and the fallout of it will last for years.

I will absolutely disagree. Someone should not be marked off your list just because of a sexual past. Much more important is her attitude about sex NOW.

I am the more experienced partner in our marriage. Does it add a layer of difficulty? Sometimes. But not all that much. My emotinal scars created a LOT more heartache than anything I did sexually. I'm pretty sure my DH would say I was worth taking a chance on.

More important is your ability to discuss these things. She would need to be able to be open and honest with you about it.

[Mr. Rkt]

Welcome to TMB, marchmadness.

I used to be in your shoes. I'll try to share a little, for what it's worth. I'm 46 now, married 15 years this April.

1. How can you accurately tell if there is any sexual chemistry without sleeping together beforehand?

It depends on what you mean by "sexual chemistry." If you're talking about a hormone driven frenzy that is supposed to last forever, that doesn't happen -- that comes and goes. If you're talking about whether there is mutual sexual attraction, that is something you should know now. Are you sexually attracted to her? Is she sexually attracted to you? You don't have to strip to answer that question, you already know. If you mean, "Does Tab A fit in Slot B pleasurably?" The answer is yes, if the two of you are committed to love each other selflessly and generously learn how to bring pleasure to each other with what God gave each of you.
Are you talking about the differences in drive? Well, there is one you can estimate right now, but even this will change over time. There is no guarantee other than the commitment you are each willing to make.

2. Wouldn't it be best for a virgin to marry another virgin? What I mean is I've also heard and read about virgins who marry non-virgins and feel gipped that the other person enjoyed sex with other people then got married and decided that they were done with sex. It seems like not all but some people who engaged in premarital sex become refusers, even if it were with just one person. Now you end up with a person who essentially did the right thing, but is being put through hell while the other person basically enjoyed themselves, often times looking back positively on the experiences.

I got married at 31, as a virgin. I doubt that anyone I dated after age 20 or so was a virgin. That was my commitment to God, and it was a difficult one. I think it's best, and I think it's what God wants, but I don't condemn those who failed at it. I failed at other things. Premarital sex does take something away, I have no doubt about that -- But God restores so much, when both partners submit the marriage to him. Personally, I think you're looking at sex all wrong. And so is anyone who looks back on their sin as "enjoying themselves," and who is comparing their spouse unfavorably with sinful unions, from which they are supposed to have repented. It is essential for a couple getting engaged to discuss these feelings openly.

Sometimes the more experienced person looks back on their past and ends up comparing their current partner to the others, whether consciously or subconsciously. This will lead to frustration for the experienced one, and pressure or even shame for the inexperienced one for not being able to please their partner in the way that they're used to.

That doesn't have to happen. Refusal is a sin, period. Those who married as virgins and those who married as non-virgins alike make up the population of refusers. It is their decision to withhold generosity, to take ownership of that which is no longer theirs alone; in other words, their decision to sin that causes refusal. I don't mean to discount those who struggle with normal sexual attitudes due top past abuse. It doesn't sound like you're talking about that here.

Would I be better off just waiting to find another virgin (if they still exist)? Going through the ringer and fighting for my purity has made it all seem that more special now that I'm older. Is it wrong for me to hold sex in such a high regard? To me it isn't because sex and love are one in the same. So if someone sees sex as "just sex", don't you think that's an indication on what they think of love? Isn't that how people end up saying "Our marriage is great, except for the sex"?

Well, I'm glad I didn't. Not only would I probably still be single now, I would have missed out on the happiest years of my life, and the union with one who has blessed me beyond measure.

I hate the fact that I'm even thinking like this because once we're in Christ we're made new. But if that's the case, why even bother telling people to save sex for marriage if God's gonna forgive them anyway? And what do you say about the people who were Christians their whole lives and yet were promiscuous knowing that it was wrong?

Don't worry about why other people sin. Worry about why you sin, or don't. The reason to avoid sin isn't because it gives you a morally superior position, it is because it separates you from the fullness of God, and it grieves Him.

I guess I just need help trying to find a balance between being self righteous and saying that everything's ok to do because of grace.

There isn't really a balance between those two things. The better thing is to be open with your lady about this. Talk it over with her. If necessary, do it with a premarital counsellor who is qualified to help you work out these feelings. You each need to understand a few things that will really help in the future, if the two of you marry.

You need to know that she truly has repented of this. If she sees this as no big deal, and glibly feels that you should just get over it, then that is a very bad sign for your future, IMHO. Part of her love for you as a wife will be to honor you, and she needs to respect what you have saved for her, and put her past sin as far as east is from west.

She needs to know that this may not be the last time you ever discuss it. While it is my hope that prayer and counselling will heal you of your insecurities about this, you need to understand that Satan hates marriage, and he may use this against you as a wedge in the future. If that happens, you can't suffer it alone. You need to be able to go to her, without judging her, and have her accept you and love you and pray with you.

When I met my wife and dated her, I found her to be not only one who loves Christ, but one who was sexually pure with me, and who respected me and the purity rules we followed while we were dating and engaged. We knew that we were sexually attracted to each other, but we knew where we had to draw lines of safety.

I'll give you an example. I owned my own home when we were engaged. She lived in another town. I actually would wake her and take her to a relative's house if she fell asleep, because I wanted us to not be tempted beyond what we could stand. She respected that. I never realized how much she did, until she wrote it down years later. It made my love for her that much more precious.

Don't wait until years later. Discuss these things now, and take your concerns to her and God. Don't approach it from the position of one who "did the right thing," but rather as a vulnerable human being who wants to feel secure in his future wife's love for him. I think you'll find she feels the same way.

God bless you both, and please stick around and let us know how things go.

[marchmadness]

Thank you all for your replies. You've really helped me understand myself and my situation a bit better. But I have to say that this may not end well. The only reason I posted this was because of the apprehension I was having. I was strongly considering parting ways with her. I guess the infatuation was starting to wane and my mind started to process the situation. It seems it would be better that a couple breakup before marriage than divorce after marriage. I'm not afraid of the idea of a lifelong commitment, but there are a few things about marriage with HER that make me feel a bit apprehensive.

Like the fact that she was never truly "on board" with us abstaining until marriage. She isn't promiscuous at all (i.e. no one night stands), but she has no problem sleeping with someone if they're in a relationship and in love. As much as we love each other, there seem to be other things that make us a little "unequally yoked". Whether this relationship continues or not, I don't know. But you all have given me some very sound advice that I've never heard anyone really talk about so honestly.

[Mr. Rkt]

Like the fact that she was never truly "on board" with us abstaining until marriage. She isn't promiscuous at all (i.e. no one night stands), but she has no problem sleeping with someone if they're in a relationship and in love. As much as we love each other, there seem to be other things that make us a little "unequally yoked".

That is an important point. If she once had no problem sleeping with someong if they're in a relationship and in love, but was redeemed of that and the two of you were on the same page now, that would be different.

Pray for wisdom and discernment.

[sweetangel]

This will lead to frustration for the experienced one, and pressure or even shame for the inexperienced one for not being able to please their partner in the way that they're used to.

If you are the inexperienced partner, I advise you to wait for another inexperienced person. You are absolutely 100% correct in your assessment of the situation you will be in for. It will be hurtful beyond belief and the fallout of it will last for years.

I will absolutely disagree. Someone should not be marked off your list just because of a sexual past. Much more important is her attitude about sex NOW.

I am the more experienced partner in our marriage. Does it add a layer of difficulty? Sometimes. But not all that much. My emotinal scars created a LOT more heartache than anything I did sexually. I'm pretty sure my DH would say I was worth taking a chance on.

More important is your ability to discuss these things. She would need to be able to be open and honest with you about it.

Second what mame said and also I think if someone can't get over someones sexual past they are not worth having. Relaly if you dont love someone enough to look past that than move on.

[kane321]

Marchmadness, I'm going to take a different angle on this to the others.

I think the solution to your problem here is two things:
1. Coming to a deeper faith in God
2. Understanding grace better.

Faith In God
I will come clean and say that I hold a Reformed/Calvinist view of the Bible, but this will still be useful even if you are Arminian because the advice is biblical. I believe that God is completely sovereign over our lives (i.e. he is in complete charge).

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Proverbs 16:9 (NIV)
In his heart a man plans his course,
       but the LORD determines his steps.

This has a number of implications. It firstly means that your virginity is as much a matter of the Lord preserving you from sin in his mercy, as it is personal will-power. In fact, I would lean on the former. So thank God for this blessing that he has bestowed upon you.

Furthermore, it means that God is responsible for bringing you and your loved one together. If you two get married, God will be responsible for joining you two together.

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Mark 10:5-9
Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Then after marriage, God will be intimately involved in your marriage as a third party.

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Ecclesiastes 4:11-12
Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
       But how can one keep warm alone?

12 Though one may be overpowered,
       two can defend themselves.
       A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Right now, I think your faith, with respect to your future marriage, is in you and your loved one's actions. Now yes, avoiding sexual sin is a useful thing to do. It will avoid a number of problems that may arise in a marriage. However it surely offers no guarantee. What happens if your wife contracts cancer, gets hit by a bus, falls into significant post-natal depression? The list could go on forever. As Mr Rkt stated, your wife could become a refuser regardless of how she acted pre-marriage, because sexual refusal is a seperate sin to fornication. Unfortunately we live in a world tainted by sin, and not only is suffering a possibility, but a gaurantee.

But as followers of Jesus, God gives us this promise.

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Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Learn to put your trust in the Lord who is sovereign, and you will experience his guidance and blessing throughout the rest of your life, even when you experience suffering. The greatest promise is that God promises that you and your wife will be preserved for salvation together on the last day, where we will all be completely freed of sin.

Grace
Sin, including sexual sin, is a terrible thing. It was enough to send the Son of God to die on a cross. It is enough to condemn us to God's judgment if we refuse to accept God's grace and repent. So you have no arguments with me with regards to the gravity of such a transgression.

However I think you are mis-understanding the nature of grace. You said 'I guess I just need help trying to find a balance between being self righteous and saying that everything's ok to do because of grace'. Paul addresses that question in Romans 6:1-14. I would encourage you to read it, although I will quote a small portion.

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Romans 6:1-4
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

In our natural understanding, we would believe that grace would lead to more sin. For example, if we released all the prisoners from jail tomorrow, I daresay the crime rate would go up as opposed to down.

But that's not what the word of God says. At the beginning of our salvation, the Holy Spirit begins a new work inside of us. Because of grace, we seek what is right and do what pleases the Lord, rather than returning to sin.

I really recommend and pray that you will do further reading on these two issues, 'faith' and 'grace'. They will help you grow into further Christian maturity not only in this area, but in many others as well. I thank God that he has saved you and your partner and will preserve you until the last day.

BTW I would just like to make one point. You said in a post:

She isn't promiscuous at all (i.e. no one night stands), but she has no problem sleeping with someone if they're in a relationship and in love.'

If she still has no problem with entering into sinful relationships, this is a problem. It shows a lack of repentance and understanding of the true nature of grace. You see, a Christian who has been saved from sin no longer delights in sin, but rather in pleasing the Lord. That's why when you say that:

Sometimes the more experienced person looks back on their past and ends up comparing their current partner to the others...and become frustrated

You could not be more wrong. As you can see from posts such as mamame's, a repentant person will feel shame, not joy about their past sin. Think back in your own life when you have really blown it. Even if you percieved some sort of gain (e.g. a social gain from backstabbing a friend, a financial gain from stealing), I doubt you would look at it fondly. It is usually a source of shame and guilt.

So talk with your loved one about this. See if she is repentant about this area. Would she choose to enter into a sinful relationship again? If the answer is yes, then that is an issue and something I would definitely work through before proposing.

[GrantUsGrace]

Marchmadness, I was a virgin when I married but my bride had had a 2-month sexual relationship with another man. I've now been married to her for almost 30 years.

It hurt beyond measure when I discovered that my wife-to-be had given her virginity to another man. I thought about it every minute for a year, every hour for 5 years, and every day for 10 years.

The hurt totally blind-sided me. I had thought about what it would be like if I were to date a non-virgin and had actually kind of enjoyed the thought of being someone's knight in shining armor. When I was faced with the actual event, it was quite different.

I now realize that a lot of my hurt was due to my own layers of insecurity -- and there were many more layers than worrying about "comparison." Comparison was the least of it. The deepest layer, for me, was the thought that her future husband (that would be me) had mattered so little to her that she would squander her virginity on someone she didn't even like all that much. She even knew it was wrong. Another biggie for me was when she would not do certain things in bed for me (oral, for example) and I would think, "You won't do something perfectly legitimate for me, but you would commit sin with him?" That hurt a lot.

What made it worse was that I felt that forgiving my wife-to-be meant (a) never bringing it up with her and (b) trying as much as I could not even to bring the issue up in my own head. As a result, I did not adequately deal with my feelings for many years. We had been married for over 15 years when I finally told her how hurt I had been, and still was. She felt like I had dumped a truckload of bricks on her. It took us several more years to recover.

I don't think everyone would have the reaction that I had. But I will say this: If it bothers you now, it will continue to bother you for a long, long time -- especially if you try to stuff your feelings. I would strongly advise you not to get engaged until you've had as many conversations as necessary with your girlfriend to put whatever hurt you have to rest.

There's more. Because I was so tied up in knots about DW having given her virginity to another man, when we had problems in other areas, I didn't deal with them either. I thought, "This is only bothering me because of The Big Problem" and stuffed my feelings about whatever smaller problem had come up, too. As a result, many other problems went untreated for too long.

Attempting to deal with my feelings by repeating theological mantras such as "we are new creatures" didn't help at all. That has been one of the big life lessons for me: We must deal realistically with our feelings. We must allow ourselves to feel them and deal with what's really going on, not attempt to cope by using abstract theological propositions. If you can't deal with your feelings on this issue, I'd move on to someone else. Do not feel guilty. After all, God commanded his priests to marry only virgins (Lev 21:10-14), so God must be OK with making the distinction.

Finally, I would ask yourself what your girlfriend's behavior says about her. In my case, my wife-to-be's behavior should have been a very large, red flag. It should have told me that she lacked self-control, was easily swayed by others, had a weak will of her own, and had low self-esteem. Those are potential show-stoppers in themselves. I was so busy repeating verses to myself about her being a new creature that I missed the red flag. Many of the character weaknesses that should have been so clear to me then are a problem to this day.

[mamame]

GUG... that is a very wise post.

That's what I was trying to say, just not as clearly. I don't think it was the fact of what I had done physically (although my DH did have some insecurity that I had to be very aware of and sensitive to) but the emotional problems that led me to that behavior... THAT was a problem and they haunted us for a good 10 years of our marriage.

Like the fact that she was never truly "on board" with us abstaining until marriage. She isn't promiscuous at all (i.e. no one night stands), but she has no problem sleeping with someone if they're in a relationship and in love. As much as we love each other, there seem to be other things that make us a little "unequally yoked".

You are right to be concerned about these things... THESE are red flags worth looking at. It sounds to me like you might know that she's not the one, and are looking for a good "reason" to end it. Saying that you don't want to enter into a lifetime commitment with someone who has different core values is a better reason than the fact that she is not a virgin alone. If you do end it, be honest, so that you don't hinder her going forward in future relationships. You don't want her to feel she is "damaged" and has no chance of a relationship with a good man. Focusing on the other reasons, gives her things she can work on and grow in if she wants that kind of marriage.

[hartheal]

It seems it would be better that a couple breakup before marriage than divorce after marriage.

This is absolute truth. Once you are married, the conviction to keep your vows is powerful and you naturally want to exercise every option before divorcing.

Some people cannot break the chains of their upbringing in legalistic churches to divorce at all. It leaves them with a lifetime of horror to endure if the marriage is bad.

I thought about it every minute for a year, every hour for 5 years, and every day for 10 years.

And every week for 20 years. Even into my next marriage after she went home to be with the Lord.

You don't want her to feel she is "damaged" and has no chance of a relationship with a good man.

That's how the bad marriage left me.

[marchmadness]

Thanks again for the replies. I'm continuing to pray about this and make more attempts to make the right decision.

kane321 mentioned that I should focus more on my faith and I agree. I'm always striving to move away from legalistic religious ideals of the past and truly know the Lord.

I guess I'm still trying to understand her spirituality a bit better. I've encountered many women like her before. She's been a Christian her whole life, went to church each week, etc. But despite that, she still had and probably still has a lax view on sex. I could understand if she were sexually abused in some way or another because I know that it affects a person's view on sex and can cause a person to become promiscuous. It would also be another thing if she didn't know Christ early on, did these things and eventually found Christ and decided to turn her life around. But that's not the case. She had a relatively normal upbringing. I guess that part of her just wanted to enjoy being young while she still can.

And like it's been said, once we accept Christ, we're made new. But that makes me wonder about a few things:
1. What about someone who essentially grew up in a Christian environment, professed to be a Christian, knew what God said about these things, and still had sex and even drank. This is where I feel like I'm being judgmental and self-righteous.

2. To me, us being knew creatures in Christ doesn't eliminate the earthly consequences of that sin. If a person commits fornication, contracts an STD and then finally finds it in their heart to repent, then God is quick to wipe away their sin so that they may one day join Him in heaven. BUT, God's grace doesn't make that STD go away. It's there and always will be. That's not to say that you have to constantly look back with regret and depression, it just means that it's a sign of what was done. I guess that's why the Bible acknowledges that sexual sin is different than others.

Maybe I'm too much of a prude. I didn't do many of the things that people my age did in high school and college. I didn't drink or engage in premarital sex, while a lot of other Christians did. I'm trying so hard to grow in Christ and truly be "Christ-like". That verse kane posted from Romans describes my thoughts exactly. If we're in Christ we should strive to do better once we receive Christ. But then you have people like my GF and a lot of the people I grew up with. They knew Christ but still did those things. Am I wrong for judging or not being okay with it? Are they wrong for sinning? Are we both right? Are we both wrong? *sigh* I don't know

[Luv2LuvHim]

Marchmadness,

I'm in that situation but reversed...my DH has a past and although grew up in somewhat of a Christian environment, he wasn't truly walking with Christ at the time. He had been married once before. I grew up in a Christian home/school and was a virgin when I met DH (and we're both older than you'd think so I know what you mean about waiting all this time).

At any rate, he doesn't feel his sexual past was anything to admire, have memories about, or long for - he's repentant of it and has accepted God's forgiveness as well as forgiven himself. He doesn't like talking about it although I don't see any negative impact in our marriage from it. When we have had talks about it, he tells me he wishes he could have been a virgin for me too...oddly enough, its not a desire for me. I mean, it wouldn't be an issue if he were but it wasn't something that I prayed for specifically "I want to marry a virgin."

I think part of me knew that at this stage in life most, if not all guys had already had some type of sexual experience whether married before or not. My main thing was I didn't want an instant family - i.e. kids from prior marriages. For reasons I wont go into, having stepchildren just wasnt something I was willing or prepared to do. Thankfully my DH didn't have any kids so it was all good for me...

All I prayed for was a godly man who wasn't necessarily perfect but someone who knew God's grace/mercy and could extend it to others...someone who loved me for me fully...someone who had a desire to please God more than the desire to please me.
IMHO, that's what I got...but believe me, there were things that came up that made me wonder - maybe I should wait for someone with my same exact experience with dating......I'm glad I didn't listen. Listen to what GOD is telling YOU regarding your relationship - His opinion is the only important one!

[ClearBlueSky]

I may be repeating what has already been said, but if she's not totally on-board with abstaining in your relationship, then she doesn't share your core-values, which are Biblical about fornication, that is a good reason not to marry. How does she feel about other sin, how disciplined is she there? I don't remember who wrote this, it could have been Dobson or McDowell, but it is 80% more likely for a couple to experience an extramarital affair when they have had premarital sex together. The key to this is that sex is paired with the lack of commitment before marriage, then it will more likely be paired with the lack of commitment after marriage. Of course, I'm sure this percentage goes down for the couple that experience a repentance together for the previous act, rather than an on-going habit with non-repentance. My question would be, even though she hasn't acted out, because you haven't participated, if she has this desire now outside of marriage, can you trust the lack-of-discipline to not stray in your marriage in the future?

[marchmadness]

That makes a lot of sense ClearBlue. She's been the type who believes everything in the Bible, but she tends to use circular reasoning when it comes to sex to justify her past. She regrets her past, but not in the sense of the sin. Just in the sense that her ex was a jerk and she wishes she would've never dated HIM Anyway I'm fairly sure that this relationship has run its course. I'm finding that I spent too much time wishing God would send me a woman that it made me lose site of the important things.

I really wish there were more books and ministries geared towards adults dating while striving for purity in today's world. Everything seems geared toward teens and married couples.

[ClearBlueSky]

This may be a little old, but the one I used in my early 20's was:

"Running the Red Lights" by Charles Mylander

I think you need to listen especially to Mr. Rkt's experiences, in waiting until his early 30's to get married, I'm sure he had a long road to haul. My experience is a little different than yours in that my DW did repent for the remaining time she was single after a 2 year stint of one-night stands, she knew it was wrong even as a pre-Christian and wanted to correct it. Unfortunately, she saw her Mom (most likely) refusing her Dad until he was driven to extra-marital affairs, her teaching without being a church-going Christian was that girls just don't do it if they are any kind of a proper lady. Her Dad wasn't right either, he was selfish and didn't consider the kids, so when he left her as the only and youngest child left at home at the age of 13, she had a mis-trust of men and believed unfortunately that sex was what she had to do to keep boyfriends, etc. Again, unfortunately, no way to predict I was going into a refusing marriage, but that all left a ton of land mines to navigate through, I saw some red flags, and I trust that God will work it all out in the end, even if I don't understand until I get to heaven. God's love and forgiveness can overcome a lot, but there are a ton of physical and emotional scars to work through, and a marriage-life partner that hasn't experienced the "darker" physical, secular world and habits of sin, even though we live with sin around us as well, may have a hard time surviving a marriage that is not unequally-yoked with Christ, but unequally-yoked with the experiences of how Christ has delivered such a person from sin and darkness ... not impossible, but a tough road. You mention the Knight in Shining Armor dream, I too, as a young man had a fantasy of being the man that would "rescue" a young lady. It wasn't until years later that I heard a Dr. Laura show where she referred to it as a syndrome. The young man actually gets a rush of attention from a woman because he's a "good guy," only to find out that a large percentage of the time, the woman is only temporarily comforted by such a man and then wants a "bad boy" back in her life, or the "good guy" is a convenient love interest for her safety, but the "bad boy" is what she has the passion for, and in marriage, even though she may never cheat, she just may not be that excited and passionate about the "good guy." Not saying this is how it is for everyone and a one-size fits all situation, just offering some points of view. I just remember at 21, having this uncontrollable feeling of desperation that the relationship and women I had, would never be again, and I'd better not miss my chance. I would advise to listen to God, even if you're single for several more years, wait for God's best. If you pray and you feel this is God's best, then fine, but just examine it closely and take it very seriously.

My experience individually kind of came to light when she described her experiences in that lifestyle going home from the bars is that "it wasn't a big deal, you just did it." Unfortunately, just as it wasn't a "big deal" with passing boyfriends and one-night stands, with her, it was equally "not a big deal" to NOT do it for our marriage relationship. The value of sex was deeply discounted in her mind through those years of baggage and scars.

[marchmadness]

You mention the Knight in Shining Armor dream, I too, as a young man had a fantasy of being the man that would "rescue" a young lady. It wasn't until years later that I heard a Dr. Laura show where she referred to it as a syndrome. The young man actually gets a rush of attention from a woman because he's a "good guy," only to find out that a large percentage of the time, the woman is only temporarily comforted by such a man and then wants a "bad boy" back in her life, or the "good guy" is a convenient love interest for her safety, but the "bad boy" is what she has the passion for, and in marriage, even though she may never cheat, she just may not be that excited and passionate about the "good guy."

I think that's exactly what my situation is. I was never the type of guy who could get the girl he wanted. In fact, I've always been passed by because I didn't have the bad boy vibe. I think I fell in love with the idea of finally having someone acknowledge me in that way, but there may not be too much left outside of that. I realize now that I need to stop searching for the perfect person and just let that person find me when God feels it's the time. And right now is not that time.

[kane321]

And like it's been said, once we accept Christ, we're made new. But that makes me wonder about a few things:
1. What about someone who essentially grew up in a Christian environment, professed to be a Christian, knew what God said about these things, and still had sex and even drank. This is where I feel like I'm being judgmental and self-righteous.

Well if that's true, I would consider this scripture.

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Luke 6:43-45
"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

That's Jesus himself speaking at the Sermon on the Mount. Obviously no one but God cannot know exactly where someone's heart is at. However Jesus does gives us an approximation. The method is basically: If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Being a Christian is not about coming from a Christian home, speaking Christian jargon, going to Church or whatever. It is being saved by God by grace, through faith, which causes a person to be repentant of their past sin and live in a way that pleases God (repentance being the key word).

I don't know where this young lady is at. But if it is true that she is still okay with sexual sin, and to some extent drinking, then I would *seroiusly* consider whether I would go ahead with proposing. The sign of a mature Christian would be someone who actively works to support your purity and does not delight in the past, but in pleasing the Lord.

As you can see by my reasoning, I don't think you are being self-righteous or judgmental at all on this point. You are being wise.

2. To me, us being knew creatures in Christ doesn't eliminate the earthly consequences of that sin. If a person commits fornication, contracts an STD and then finally finds it in their heart to repent, then God is quick to wipe away their sin so that they may one day join Him in heaven. BUT, God's grace doesn't make that STD go away. It's there and always will be. That's not to say that you have to constantly look back with regret and depression, it just means that it's a sign of what was done. I guess that's why the Bible acknowledges that sexual sin is different than others.

You're right. To be honest, I don't think it is morally wrong to say you feel you can't date someone who isn't a virgin. But how does that get implemented practically? I mean, unless people are willing to tell you on the first date (in which case, I'd question whether they are telling you the whole truth), it's going to be difficult to put in place that policy.

What I was saying in my previous post was that although sexual sin can be a source of problems, no challenge cannot be met when both partners submit themselves to Jesus. Trust God through this process to help you meet the right person. This means obeying the scriptures, but also trusting in his sovereignty and providence. If the Lord leads you to a person who has sinned sexually in the past, but is repentant, then trust him. This is probably a struggle that most Christian couples have to face, but one that most emerge from victorious.

Nonetheless, as for this particular relationship, I think you should pray a lot about this. Talk to your partner and nut out her real views on the subject (c/f something that is just said to placate the issue). It could save you a lot of trouble in the future.

[sweetparker]

Witholding the engagement ring is not a judgement where we set ourselves up in place of God to bring pain to a 'sinner'.

Deciding against a engagement is the choice of a marital partner who will determine much of the fate of the rest of our lives. It is neither good nor bad unless it is done with malice or sin.

Now many people on this thread will tell you that previous sexual history is not as important as being saved now. And it's not- if they are just a friend or even more.

However we are giving special license to acceptance of sexual differences that we are not giving to other differences. Let me give you a example:

If a woman wanted a steady provider, someone taller then her, handsome, strong, but kind would we say she is judgemental or it was simply her choice to make?

What if this woman fell in love with a man at church. Their hormones were intense. This man wasn't anything to look at, shorter then her, skipped college, screwed around, held a series of part time jobs in fast food, listens to heavy metal, but now thanks to a few lucky breaks he is making $15 a hour in a precarious job that could end any time. He's shorter then her, not strong at all, and has a problem with smoking and drinking that 'he's struggling with, but he's been sober for ten years- and saved for two.'

What if this woman was a kind hearted person who has been going to church since she was very young. She volunteered at the local soup kitchen, she went through college, didn't screw around, and is in fact still a virgin. She plays classical music and has held a series of internships as well as part time jobs and is taller then this man (even though she's not taller then average). She has never had a smoking or drinking problem, and in fact has never smoked in her life. She wants to fall head over heels in love with her dream of what is Mr. Right for a christian marriage.

Are they really that compatible? What if her friends just told her that she was insecure about marrying someone who had struggled with giving into issues of misuse of drugs before in his past? Really? Is insecurity in some relationships really that bad? Sometimes the feeling of being insecure with a relationship is a realistic emotion from the heart that should be respected and the relationship should not be pursued.

I would say in this hypothetical scenario that while he is not Mr. Right, he is looking like Mr. Right Now because of the hormones. While we can say she cannot hold his past against him, neither can she blind herself to the differences between the two. There are some differences which should not be there in marital partners.

And it seems to me that you know there is a difference right now you don't want to deal with in a potential marital partner- and you shouldn't! Be loving and kind to them but don't lead them on for hope of marriage you don't feel comfortable going to. There are many goals for compatibility, and you have a few goals of your own too! There's nothing wrong with that.

You must MUST stop thinking of yourself as a prude. You are judging yourself MUCH TOO HARSHLY. There are many more women who would not even DATE a man who was shorter then them then there are women who would not marry a virgin.

Let me remind you again, even though we may not judge them as a person for the wrong they have committed with other people that doesn't concern us this means that we can still continue to be a brother (or sister) to them. You can still be like a brother to her. However, ignoring your feelings and differences in these important issues is wrong, wrong, wrong.

You are letting a false view of religiousity distort very legitimate and heartfelt concerns you have about this relationship.

The knight in shining armor idea, while being powerfully attractive (you've just SAVED someone) also means that you would be attracted to a someone who needs saving- a victim personality. Victims always need a knight in shining armor. And a victim personality will always need 'saving' and will be falling into behaviors or emotional patterns that you need to 'save them' from, offering the promise of sex to get you to do their bidding while you are distracted to be slaying dragons.

And if fighting dragons is what you have been called to do, you will need a stronger person by your side then a lady that needs saving. A heroic character, one that is strong and doesn't need you to help 'save' her in order to have a relationship with her. One that can fight with you side by side, in unity against evil and lovelessness. One that can pray on her knees by your side, and support you in life (not just opening her legs). However finding this strong partner is difficult for you because your mission as a KNIGHT is so important that God would not mess up this mission by giving you anything less then the perfect partner for you!

Are you a knight for God, one that is willing to engage in a relationship without even the benefit of betrothal? Are you willing to carry on and slay the dragons of lovelessness, pride, wrath, to do good even in dark vales without a woman on the horse by you? Let's extend this story-knight metaphor further. Since when did the honorable knights of old need a woman for a loving sexual relationship when they went out to war? No, none of the knights of the round table needed a woman with them as they went on their quest. Now these days it is different since quests last longer, but who is this one you have found?

Are you now in a desert? Is she a mysterious lady in green with a shaded tent who offers you love, and a desire for mating as you carry out your quest? Or is she a fellow knight, with a sword in her and a shield on her back on the same quest as you? Think of these metaphors, realize where in life both of you are and if she will help you in your walk with God- or hinder you.

Is sexual availibility and willingness and a partner that makes you feel good that important right now to you? It seems to me that you are too sweet and innocent to be able to fully enjoy what she wants to offer you right now. She is wiser, more mature about relationships. For life is indeed quite short and love is hard to find save for those who find it. In a way it is you that love her less, but realizing this do not break the heart you have been handed. For God has allowed you two to come together for a purpose- even if that purpose does not necessarily lead either to sex or marriage due to your mutual choices. Realize though, that God will not strike you down dead if you give into your feelings for her.

In the mean time, continue to slay those dragons, rescue those who need saving (but dont drag them to the altar), and learn the other skills of manhood which include confidence(There are many great manuals on this for guys who never had a brother or father to show them how) which may feel unfamiliar to the chaste and sweet knight persona you have had to live in christianity.

I suggest, do not give her the ring.